Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Feaduin » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 am

Kiawah wrote:That's pretty lame. Paying money to get an in-game advantage? It's like they know what to do to get me to not buy this game.


Wait this is merely for pre ordering the game... this is not something you get by paying more money than anyone else. An advantage for early adopters, not for the rich. Reading comprehension -1.

I'm trying to figure if it's worth it try it out for a month or adopt a wait and see approach.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:41 am

Kiawah wrote:I haven't played the game, but things like, "Skill Points", "Borg Bridge Officer", "Joined Trill", "Personal Shield", etc definitely sound like non-cosmetic perks.

That's pretty lame. Paying money to get an in-game advantage? It's like they know what to do to get me to not buy this game.




They addressed it by saying the pre-order perks are only good for about your first 20 hours of play and are mild advantages. I do agree with you that in terms of an MMO any advantage given to a player over another player simply for spending more money or spending the money earlier is bad, but since your first 10 hours you can't even PVP maybe it isn't SO bad. Now the lifetime player bonus which is like a 30 second stun for being a borg, that one annoyed me.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Kiawah » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:10 am

Feaduin wrote:
Kiawah wrote:That's pretty lame. Paying money to get an in-game advantage? It's like they know what to do to get me to not buy this game.


Wait this is merely for pre ordering the game... this is not something you get by paying more money than anyone else. An advantage for early adopters, not for the rich. Reading comprehension -1.


It's a good thing then that I didn't say you were paying more money. Reading comprehension -1.


It's moot if its just a temp buff. However if they're trying to use RL money, even if it's when it's spent, to affect the balance of things in game, that's wrong.

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:16 am

It's not a temporary thing, just that for example if you pre-order and get the armor, it's slightly better than the base armor, but by the time your level 10 it will be replaced. Or if you pre-order for the better ship, by level 11 you're going to need to upgrade to something else. So I guess it's bonuses to make the beginning of the game 1% smoother.

I still think Cryptic has a shot at making something good here. The next content patch will decide for me if I'm buying it or not.
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Windigo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:37 pm

Marcallo wrote:I still think Cryptic has a shot at making something good here.


Let me save you the trouble. No.

Also, wtf accept my facebook invite you ho.

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Munki » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:13 pm

I was a really big fan of Cryptic in the CoH days... they ended up not really panning out, but when the game was released it was actually a very fresh breath of air in a quickly growing genre. Unfortunately, they really didn't seem to grasp what made MMO's really have staying power, and that's what caused CoH to ultimately fail. I was ready to give another chance to CO, but that game ended up being a big let down too. It's like they care so much about their customization... which is definitely awesome, that they forget about the rest of the game.

As to the pre-order bonuses... if I had any interest in this game, the Tribble bonus would definately make me pre-order.

And Kia... despite the fact you didn't say "More" money, you did say 'spending money for in game advantages' ... there was nothing about the 'time' you spent your money in your statement. You aren't spending any money on in game advantages. I think I have to give Feaduin his +1 reading comprehension back, because you just weren't clear.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Feaduin » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:54 pm

"More" is logically implied because everyone has to pay for the game regardless of perks. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. :D

Anyway, you guys played other Cryptic games while I haven't, and if you guys really think they can't make a sustainable MMO, then I'll have to trust your collective judgment and take a first day pass. Maybe take another look later when they have more content. Too bad cuz I really really wanted a good Trek game to play and parts of it seem fun and sound like there is potential there.

Then again, there is Mass Effect 2, Bioshock 2, Heavy Rain, and all the other stuff coming down. I'll prob forget about this next week.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Metostopholes » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:59 pm

Munki wrote:I think I have to give Feaduin his +1 reading comprehension back, because you just weren't clear.

Wait, those points are real? And moderators can give them back? Did Feather install some weird RPG stats mod that I didn't notice? :P

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Munki » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:44 pm

Feaduin wrote:"More" is logically implied because everyone has to pay for the game regardless of perks. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. :D

Anyway, you guys played other Cryptic games while I haven't, and if you guys really think they can't make a sustainable MMO, then I'll have to trust your collective judgment and take a first day pass. Maybe take another look later when they have more content. Too bad cuz I really really wanted a good Trek game to play and parts of it seem fun and sound like there is potential there.

Then again, there is Mass Effect 2, Bioshock 2, Heavy Rain, and all the other stuff coming down. I'll prob forget about this next week.


I want a good Trek game too. Sadly Cryptic just relies on their customization to sell the game. And while Customization is awesome and all, it's not exactly something to make me play long term. I mean, if that's what I want, I'll just play around Deviant Art instead of an MMO.

That's an idea! DA: The MMO!

Metostopholes wrote:Wait, those points are real? And moderators can give them back? Did Feather install some weird RPG stats mod that I didn't notice? :P

I just always assumed I could do everything I wanted and that my word was law. I willed the Reading Comprehension points in to being for just this purpose. Limited Supply! Of course, usually then I get laughed at and Nicole tells me I'm wrong.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Kiawah » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:09 pm

Feaduin wrote:"More" is logically implied because everyone has to pay for the game regardless of perks. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. :D



It's not logically implied, though. Adding "more" completely changes the meaning of the sentence, and it's not what I said. You could also imply "Paying money for the pre-order", which is what I thought was logically implied. Me typing too fast and not being %100 clear, I'll grant that, writing skills -1.

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:27 am

Send it again Windigo I probably didn't know it was you and ignored it. I ignore probably 3 out of 5 friend requests on face book. I'm actually fairly private in my real life.
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:30 am

BTW Damon I wouldn't call CoH a failure at all. CoX is probably one of the most different MMO's out there that has a sustainable audience and makes money. Is it WoW or Lineage? Nah... but what it does have is a loyal fan base who loves it. They push 2-3 huge content patches for free every year. Regularly give free weekends which occasionally makes old players sign up for a couple more months. And it's a fun game... In short bursts. Champions on the other hand I dunno, I was on their forums the other day and nobody seemed very happy. They seem to think ST:O is the golden child and that Champions has been put on the back burner. Could be true, but from what I understand it's two separate development teams not even in the same building.
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Munki » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:03 pm

I guess I didn't mean a commercial failure, because as you said CoX has managed to do fine.

I was more speaking of failure for me personally... the game had so much promise in my eyes, with a wonderful customization engine, but then when you actually got in to the game, it had very little variety. I know you can say the same of every MMO on the market, but the top tier MMO's manage to stay interesting by having a good variety of NPC mobs that have to be tackled in many ways. Sure, you end up doing the same thing over and over still, but when you have to change up your tactics on how to tackle the next batch of enemies fairly often, it feels more engaging. CoX I honestly felt that each pack of enemies was pretty much the same (or at least very similar) and I rarely had to change up my approach to the game, which gave it an insanely repetitive feeling after awhile.

In the end Cryptic I think focuses TOO MUCH on their customization engine... I realize it's what gives them their unique niche/edge, but I feel they ignore the other elements of the game in the process.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Kiawah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:26 pm

Munki wrote:I know you can say the same of every MMO on the market, but the top tier MMO's manage to stay interesting by having a good variety of NPC mobs that have to be tackled in many ways. Sure, you end up doing the same thing over and over still, but when you have to change up your tactics on how to tackle the next batch of enemies fairly often, it feels more engaging.



The reason that CoH had no variety in their NPCs was because all their NPCs were trash mobs. WoW would have been the same deal if you fought nothing but Defias in Westfall the entire game. What gave WoW (and other top tier MMOs) variety was that the Defias were a minor part of the fighting, you still had Van Cleef at the end which mixed things up.

I've noticed that in most RPGs that favor AoE fighting as opposed to single target + CC, they usually don't stay interesting for very long. When AoE is more or as powerful as single target, it turns into facerolling your keyboard over your highest dmg'ing attack, and nothing more. This makes the repetitiveness of RPGs stick out even more.

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Sord » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:06 pm

This is all my opinion of course but I find games that use limited CC a bit more interesting than a game where its full on required. I played a LOT of EQ and there was almost no such thing as killing 2 mobs at once. If you got a 2nd one, if you didn't have someone that could Mez it, it was bad news for your average pug AA grinding group. I will admit though that an enchanter was probably one of the most fun things I played in EQ. CC was a fun job sometimes. Of course thats pretty much ALL you did so if you didn't mind that as your sole role, it wasn't horrible. I just think setting up a whole bunch of CC is annoying. 1 or 2 mobs out of a pack is okay but when you have to CC 4 out of 6 mobs, it borders on ridiculous.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:45 pm

This is getting way off topic, but I'll add to the mess. :D I played EQ for a long while and really enjoyed it. I had a cleric with a click stick. This was around Kunark and Velious. I didn't play after that really. My ONLY job was to either do Rolling heals on a tank or Res people. Nothing else. If I even thought of clicking another ability I would have been thrown out of my guild at the time.
I remember so little about that game, and I'm convinced it's because I spent all of my time staring at health bars. This was before UI customization and soloing and various roles within character classes. So all this being said, I think I would HATE EQ now. I like being able to play alone OR with 5-24 other people. Options are good, customization is good. Back to the topic of STO:O. Whether or not cryptic gets St:O right, I don't know, but I've decided to give them a month because I like Star Trek that much. And I really do like the space battles and the UI pass they did today is really good.
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Feaduin » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:58 pm

Kiawah wrote:
Feaduin wrote:"More" is logically implied because everyone has to pay for the game regardless of perks. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. :D



It's not logically implied, though. Adding "more" completely changes the meaning of the sentence, and it's not what I said. You could also imply "Paying money for the pre-order", which is what I thought was logically implied. Me typing too fast and not being %100 clear, I'll grant that, writing skills -1.


/raises eyebrow
Not logical. We are on a Star Trek thread so this should be cleared up stat!
It only makes sense when used in the context of paying more money. And if that were the case, I'd be turned off to the game as well. However, paying the same amount as everyone else but earlier, how is that offensive? Where is the harm? I pre order games all the time so I can get my hands on it first release day even if there are no other benefits to me. The fact they attach a perk to it only boosts their initial sales numbers a bit and generates some excitement for the game. It's not like a pre order would net them any more money than a regular order. You get 30 days free so that rules out extra subscription money as their angle. From these circumstances I concluded that there is no harm or ill-gotten benefit/gain from a preorder bonus, therefore it is illogical to attach the concept of time into your original sentence.
You'll need to come up with a plausible reason for why pre-ordering = harmful. Otherwise you are just backpedaling.
/lowers eyebrow

I was an EQ cleric with a click stick as well through planes of power or luclin.. whichever was later. I forget now. As soon as the WoW beta hit, I never fired up EQ again. Staring at HP bars, CH rots, all of that shit plus buff debuff once in a while and extra careful attention on the chanter.... that was the life of the EQ cleric. Totally dependent and niche.

So that should be the next question... I read about the different roles the escorts, science vessels, and cruisers play. I can see how they would function in a team as any MMO veteran can recognize the roles they made. It doesn't say how viable these ships (at least the smaller ones) are for single ship action. From what I've seen on Xplay's preview, it looks like the missions are geared for group play and if you are solo, they are filled with friendly AI to make up for the lack of human players (at least on the ground mission they showed). Are there any truly solo missions that don't need filler AI NPCs?
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Sord » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:19 am

More OT, feeling nostalgic...

I stuck with EQ for a few months (2ish) after WoW came out and something I remember about healing is that they were trying to transition away from having to do a CH rotation all the time and clerics ended up using more of their fast heals, like Flash Heal in WoW.

Back to Star Trek...

I'm tempted to give it a shot too but I really don't want to drop 60 bucks on a game if I don't know if I'd stick with it. I hope that they'll come out with a free trial thing like a lot of MMO's have (yeah, I know, I could have done the beta as my "trial" :P but I'm just not ready to start another MMO). Another reason I want to give it a shot is because I always want to know what happened after all the TV shows. Just from the bit I've read, its kind of annoying to find out that the treaty between the Federation and the Klingons has dissolved. Especially after what they all had to go through to make it work during the DS9 series. Of course all I know is that it did dissolve and not the reasons for it so my annoyance is fairly minimal but it kinda jabs me in the back of my mind.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Feaduin » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:16 am

Totally agree. It's bugging me that the Klingons seem to have no sense of owing the Federation anything for their very existence. How many times did the Federation help them out of dire straits like when Praxis their moon blew up, stopping the Duras clan from cheaping their way to the throne, save Martok, save Gowron, kill Gowron, save them from a mutagenic weapon, help stop the Dominion... etc. Like how many more times does the Federation have to prove themselves honorable and capable in saving the Klingon Empire and the Alpha quadrant? I can see them parting ways with the Fed but going openly hostile and opening fire? Did we open fire on the Klingons to help the Gorn or something?
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Sord » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:00 am

The whole Klingon conflict just feels old. Its been done. Martok was awesome and something must have happened to him in order for all this crap to be going on now. I'm not sure how far past DS9 and Voyager it is as far as cannon goes though, so perhaps he's pushing up daisies from old age. There are so many other interesting villains that they can be fighting against or even totally new ones.

I guess thats just a complaint I have in general about fictional universes and when they jump ahead in time. The neat thing about the latest Star Trek shows was that they really all happened all in the same time period (not including Enterprise, of course). It was neat seeing the Enterprise docked at DS9 for the first episode or mentions of Voyager lost in the delta quadrant during DS9. Its probably me just wanting to know what happened to those characters outside of having to read a novel. If its far enough into the future, the characters we all loved are probably long dead and while it opens up opportunity to fall in love with new characters, it still bums me out a bit because I think it could have been fleshed out so much better.

A series of books I am reading kinda did the same thing. The first 3 books were about this one broad and her bodyguard and their mission to save the world. The next 3 books were about her adopted son and his life's strugles. I was a little annoyed cause I liked the original characters but at least they were a part of the next 3 stories even if not a main character. Now the next chunk of books are set like 200 years into the future with characters that are descendants of the old main characters and while they often talk about the past, it just feels like a big part of the story is missing. The characters from the first books were in their late 30's, her adopted son in his early 20's by the end of that 6 book series. Perhaps they just lived happily ever after and nothing really important took place for the rest of their lives. Who knows. On the plus side, the newer books 200 years into the future are written well with another interesting character and interesting story so I'm willing to let it go and just enjoy it without making myself too crazy.

I guess this is just me bitching about the lack of a TV series to bridge that gap. I'm sure all I'm complaining about is covered in novels.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:08 am

I think Mortok was killed in Ritual battle by Jm'Pok who is now the klingon ruler. The Gorn attacked the klingon homeworld out of nowhere and when the klingons retaliated, they retaliated bigtime. At first the federation helped them, but it soon became apparent that the Klingons weren't content to push the Gorn away but to conquer them completely. This fanaticism lead to a schism with the federation of planets and soon conflict if not open war. There is also the renewed Borg threat to deal with. Though these borg don't act like the borg of old, they seem less coordinated somehow like they are each their own group.

Check out the STO page for the Path to 2409 or whatever it's called. It's a weekly article that describes everything that's happened since the end of the last movie till now which is something like 40 years.

AND this is all approved by paramount as Cannon to the series. So anything they do in game counts. Which is not true of the recent JJ Abrahms movie. Which is set in its own timeline entirely somehow. I haven't seen it so I don't know all the details, I really need to update my netflix queue one of these days.
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Kiawah » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:16 am

Feaduin wrote:/raises eyebrow
Not logical. We are on a Star Trek thread so this should be cleared up stat!
It only makes sense when used in the context of paying more money. And if that were the case, I'd be turned off to the game as well. However, paying the same amount as everyone else but earlier, how is that offensive? Where is the harm? I pre order games all the time so I can get my hands on it first release day even if there are no other benefits to me.



Logic and assumptions, you:
paying more money -> getting perks -> bad
paying for pre-order -> not getting perks -> good

Logic and assumptions, me:
paying more money -> proceed to 4th dimension -> good
paying for pre-order -> getting perks -> bad


Feaduin wrote:The fact they attach a perk to it only boosts their initial sales numbers a bit and generates some excitement for the game. It's not like a pre order would net them any more money than a regular order. You get 30 days free so that rules out extra subscription money as their angle. From these circumstances I concluded that there is no harm or ill-gotten benefit/gain from a preorder bonus, therefore it is illogical to attach the concept of time into your original sentence.
You'll need to come up with a plausible reason for why pre-ordering = harmful. Otherwise you are just backpedaling.
/lowers eyebrow


logic by me:

not paying for pre-order -> unable to overcome obstacles in game -> cancel next day

Yeah, pre-orders are great for initial sales, and they're fine when there's no harmful affects. The harmful effect however is you're getting clear advantages by getting the pre-order that people who don't get the pre-order don't have, nor ever will have. This is not good. It's not great for the game as a whole. If I know it's not good for the game as a whole before-hand, I won't buy the game.


PS
When I wrote the original line, I was under the assumption that the perks were harmful. Later, when Marcallo posted that the effects weren't harmful because they're only available in early levels, my point did become moot. There are no harmful effects to getting the pre-order, which means yay pre-order okay :)

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Marcallo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:42 am

The pre-order perks are mostly benign. For example if I pre-order my ship will be NX-##### if you buy on release your ship will be USS-######. One of the other bonuses is some power armor. it's like 1% better than what you can get at level 5. So it's an advantage but negligable because once you hit PVP level you'll have something better. Same thing with the constitution class exploration vessle. It's a bit better, but it's obsolete by level 11.


NOw the BOrG lifetime membership ability. That one seems like it could be out of whack. They get a special debuff ability that looks like it scales with level and noone else can have. I don't like that at all. But how many of those are there going to be 200 on a server of 20,000? so you have a 1% chance to run into one? I dunno.
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Munki » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:38 pm

The Lifetime perks don't bug me.

Plain and simple, if I'm going to drop 250ish + 60 bucks (what's the cost again? I know it's in that general vicinity) on a game, I damn well better get something for my trouble. If that ends up being an ability that gives me a slight advantage, yay me.

While you can argue it's not good or fair for game balance (and you'd be right) they have to make those subs look enticing somehow, or else they won't sell. And I'm guessing they WANT the lifetime subs to sell. Sadly the "After almost 2 years you'll have made your money back" angle is a hard sell for an unproven MMO.
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Re: Star Trek: Online - First Impressions

Postby Sidonia » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:50 pm

If it's anything like CO, they won't offer the lifetime thing either after the game is released.. even more of a leap of faith..


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