So... Mists of Pandaria

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So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Sord » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:24 am

I have nothing nice to say about the expansion so I'll just keep most of it to myself.

Discuss new features and content here!
Bye space sword!

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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Kiawah » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:43 am

Most of the features seem pretty vague, at least in the minimal amount I've researched it. Pet battle system? Challenge mode dungeons? I don't plan on playing Diablo 3, so getting that for free isn't much of a perk.

I think it looks cool though, and I'd be down for it... but there's about 4-5 other games that would have to completely flop in order for me to play WoW again. I might still resub for like a month, level to 90 and then quit... but I doubt I'll have time for that.

Also, don't keep it to yourself Josh, let it out!


/edit

Ahh, Challenge mode dungeons = dungeons where gear is normalized... so it's impossible to outgear it

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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Sord » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:25 am

I can't explain it. I've always just had an irrational dislike of the pandaren stuff. I didn't mind it so much as an april fools joke but when the playerbase actually started saying that they wanted it as a playable race over the years, it just made me angrier. And to find out that they are actually retconning in an entire expansion based upon an april fools joke is basically the final nail in the coffin for me. Maybe if they were just an NPC faction like the Kaluak in WotLK, I would have been a little more receptive.

None of their features really interest me. I stopped caring about Pokemon during the Ruby/Sapphire era. Challenge maps could be interesting for the casual player, especially since they supposedly do not require any sort of tank, dps or healing setup. Heroic Scholomance and Scarlet Monestary? Yawn. There was a time I would have been excited for that I guess but somewhere along the line I've become pretty jaded and recycled content doesn't really get my motor running anymore.

They revamped the talent system AGAIN and I can't figure out why. They say they are trying to get rid of cookie cutter specs but that will never ever happen. Some dude will always figure out what gives that 1% edge over something else and people will flock to it.

Anyhow, Blizzard just saved me a good chunk of money that I don't have to spend on the expansion and probably their next expansion too because even if the next expansion ends up being awesome, I'm probably going to pass because I don't want to have to level up through this travesty just to get to it.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Munki » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:23 am

Josh is just tired of wow and so is overly negative!

Overall it looks like a solid expansion, although to be honest I think the Pandarans were a mistake (at least right now). If blizz is looking to combat SWTOR, Fuzzy Pandas won't convince people to not play as a Jedi or Sith :)

Monk is an interesting class, but it feels weird to have them utilize a new combat paradigm... as Derek and I discussed, it's basically the TOR combat model. Overall not enough was really shown about the class for me to really form an opinion. I'm sure if I was planning on playing I would try it out though.

Pandaria LOOKS beautiful. I am pretty happy that the asian themed continent looks so fantastic. Very colorful and serene looking. A+ on this part of the xpac!

Challenge Dungeons look ok, but I don't think I really care about them. It's a decent enough feature though. I can see them being very popular among the pve elite for sure. Having Leaderboards is a nice touch.

I *love* the Pet Battle system. I think it's a genius move on their part. No Pokemon MMO, people enjoy Mini Pets in general, and it adds a very unique and fun mini game layer to the game. If I do end up playing WoW again, I will get heavily in to this feature for sure :)

The talent system does seem strange. I don't think it was necessary to change again and the new system doesn't seem any better than the old one. And as Josh said, there will still be cookie cutter builds. Blizz is ignorant if they think there won't be.

The Diablo 3 offer is pretty fantastic. Nicole may end up taking part in the annual pass thing because of that. I doubt I will though.

All in all the xpac looks ... like I would expect. Solid, new content, minor new features. I was dissapointed to not see them add any sort of new major features to the game, but oh well. This xpac looks like it would be fun if I was still playing wow, but feels 'minor' enough to not pull me back to the game from TOR / GW2. Ultimately if I play it will completely depend on how well those 2 games keep my attention.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Evenflow » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:15 pm

To start off, I will be playing this and leveling up all my characters. So, there is that.

My problem is that I'm getting the impression that they are just milking the game now and not even trying to give us a true sequel. I'm not at all interested in a giant world filled with fat fucking karate pandas. Who cares about that? The race doesn't look that cool and from the notes on the Monk class, I doubt I will even play it. They could've done so many other great things with this expansion, but instead, they go the route of...panda bears? Really? :evil: I'm not going to make any solid predictions yet, but I have a nagging suspicion that this is going to turn out exactly like Cataclysm did.

However, if the pokemon pet-battling is awesome, I will never quit and I will train to be the best there ever was. This will be me:

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Except instead of Ash, it will be a giant moonkin and instead of Pikachu, it will be a baby moonkin named Evenflow Jr.

The new talent trees and what not look ok, but even those are going to turn into cookie cutter generic builds come endgame.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby PopnFresh » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Pandas

I can understand why some people are turned off by them, but honestly I feel like people are being too harsh. At least they were legitimately in WC3, no matter how the concept came up. There's no retconning at all here that I can see, and it's not a completely made up addition like the Worgen or the Draenei's playable form. I'm not trying to change anyone's minds, I get the general discomfort, I just think it's ironic that people seem to be claiming that this doesn't fit in at all, when they actually fit in really well. And personally, I love asian land/artistic influences on things, so I'm greatly looking forward to the new zones. My biggest issue with Panderans themselves is that their starting area is gorgeous - like fighting in a massive Japanese tea garden - but after 10 levels, then what? Dropped off at Westfall? Even if their starting area lasts as long as the Worgen/Goblin area was originally supposed to (I thought their original announcement said 20 levels), the idea of going back to even the cataclysm world just doesn't appeal to me at all, and in fact is a major hurdle.

And no DKs?! Totally makes sense, but uuuuugh let me start at least at level 55!

Monks
The unfortunate reason why I may end up leveling a character through the lands I just complained about. I got to play for 40 minutes as a Monk, thanks in part to . people seemingly not knowing when the show opened on Saturday (first talk was at 10 or 11, but doors and demos started at 9, and it was dead from 9 - 10). I like them a lot. Partially because I'm now accustomed to TOR combat, so the lack of auto attack felt great to me. Their moves felt good - I got 1,000 achievement points in the demo for using the Roll move 100 times - and I really like the Light/Dark force system (these guys are just tor all over). If I had a complaint about them, it's that they also have an energy resource - Chi - which powers force building moves, and it honestly felt really disconnected. I basically only watched my force bar the whole time, and only really noticed Chi running out from my CONSTANT ROLLING.

They feel like an advanced class, despite Blizz specifying they aren't considered a heroic class. I mean, at level 1 they have 1) Move that builds one light force and one dark force and 2) a move that requires one light force and does more damage to an opponent with more than 50% health. I know WE all get that, but come on, that is some crazy shit to ask a new player to understand. Those kinds of modifiers cropped up on most of the moves in the demo. A powerful kick attack that takes 2 dark force but refunds 1 if it's a killing blow, the Hurrican Kick which slows you by 35% or something. It's like the class is built for alting.

Challenge Dungeons
Love. It's a minor feature, but I really like the concept of normalized gear + gold/silver/bronze medals for times = vanity loot such as armor with no stats for transmogrifying.

PVE Quest Instances, forget what they're called
Lame. I mean, it's not a bad idea, just a pointless one. The examples they've listed just sound like regular quest chains, but ooooo they're instanced! And group based not needing a tank! So...I'm guessing they wanted this for Cata, which explains cataclysm having zero group quests from 80-85 outside of dungeons. I'm sure I will do them for mfas.

Pet Fighting
An amazing sounding feature, with a few potential frightening side effects. First off, short of just dissing the game in general, I don't get why some fans are so against this. It's obviously completely optional, and I hate to break it to people, but it's not like Blizzard was going to create a completely unique second continent or something if they didn't "waste their time" on the pet thing.

I'm just worried about the whole tradeable pet concept. Where will the line be drawn with that? I really don't want them to allow people to, say, sell their Mini Diablos on the auction house, or their Perky Pugs. And can you have multiple of a pet now, since there are levels? Can I buy a level 5 argent squire to go alongside my level 3 one? Lots of questions around the backend of this system, and I forsee a lot of unsatisfying compromises.

World of Voiceover
Not at all related to the expansion, purely a Blizzcon thing, but my plane is boarding so I don't want tomake a separate post. This was a really cool concept at the show, and I guess they had it last year, too. They get four people together, and you get a script, and a wow cutscene, and you do the voices over it, karaoke style. It's the same cut scene for everyone, but people do the voices differently and such. I had a few friends with me, so we went ahead and did it, and I thought the result was pretty good. We at least got told that we were unique.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mB1vuci_ZqI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Munki » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:12 pm

You make a sexy Wrynn :O
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Sord » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:07 pm

That was an excellent video. You know, I had never actually seen that cinematic the first time it came out and I really have no idea how I missed it :O
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby PopnFresh » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:50 pm

We stayed very true to the original Blizzard trailer. At the time, it was an awkward cut scene, but in retrospect it had a sort of avant garde brilliance
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Tamayo » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:59 pm

I'll probably do the same thing I did with Cata. Play it for about 2 months then get bored when I realize it's all the same shit again. At least the new zones look pretty!
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Kiawah » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:07 am

The thing with the talent system isn't really about it being cookie cutter, it just goes in line with Blizzard's philosophy that the game should be so easy a 3 year old could do it. It falls into the same kinda thought process as the item stat revamp during Cata. They don't want players to need a spreadsheet in order to pick their talents or gear. Gear is too complicated? Dumb it down. Talents are too complicated? Dumb it down. Threat is too hard? Remove it.

The crappy thing is those are the things I liked about WoW. Combine that with the fact that there are wayyyy to many cosmetic things in WoW and you've got a game that has 0 interest for me, in terms of longevity of play. It seems like every single system they actually advertise for in expansions now is just for cosmetic gain, but I still subscribe to the philosophy that an activity that doesn't progress your character is a waste of time. Like the challenge dungeons? I'd be a lot more interested in them if you got an actual tangible reward, and not some bullcrap medals like we're all a bunch of 3 year olds playing the game.

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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Munki » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:42 am

Unfortunately Kia, "cosmetic" rewards and systems are not only here to stay, but I fully expect them to be getting bigger in MMO's in general. The reason is, they are actually pretty popular with the entire playerbase, and they give a breadth of activities to the player, as opposed to 'the same old thing'. Raiders keep saying on the forum time and time again, that raiding is about the challenge, not the loot. So if they aren't lying, then Challenge Dungeons should be a blast for them :)

The problem with player progression vs. cosmetic rewards is, you can only go so far with progression so quickly. Players will ALWAYS devour all the progression content at a rate that blizzard can't even HOPE to match. Nor would they want to, their game would spiral up at a ridiculous rate. Cosmetic rewards not only fulfill a basic need for most players (to stand out, to not look 'just like everyone else') but you can make a lot more of them without causing your upper limit to constantly soar. And it's a lot easier to just make skins, as you don't have to keep balance of the classes/pvp/pve in mind while doing it. Just have an artist make a new skin for people to earn, and throw it in the game. Done.

So yea. I feel you on the 'dumbing down' side of things, but on the Cosmetic vs. Progression side, I think you are just going to be more and more disappointed with MMO's in general.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Kiawah » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:52 am

Munki wrote:Unfortunately Kia, "cosmetic" rewards and systems are not only here to stay, but I fully expect them to be getting bigger in MMO's in general. The reason is, they are actually pretty popular with a section of the playerbase


Fixed. The size of that player base is debatable, but it's certainly not the entire player base. I hate it.


and they give a breadth of activities to the player, as opposed to 'the same old thing'. Raiders keep saying on the forum time and time again, that raiding is about the challenge, not the loot. So if they aren't lying, then Challenge Dungeons should be a blast for them :)


People that say that raiding is only about the challenge are just speaking a half-truth. It is about the challenge, but it's also about the feeling of those hard fights getting easier as the weeks move on and your character progresses. Because in WoW (and a lot of theme park MMOs) progression comes from gear, gear and challenge go hand-in-hand.


The problem with player progression vs. cosmetic rewards is, you can only go so far with progression so quickly. Players will ALWAYS devour all the progression content at a rate that blizzard can't even HOPE to match.


This is a fallacy, and Blizzard has proven this wrong countless times. Yeah it's true that the top %1 could be stuck farming Black Temple for months on end sometimes while waiting for a new content patch or a bug fix... but this isn't true for the majority of players. Blizzard can definitely put in fights that challenge even the most hardcore of hardcore, and they did this numerous times during Vanilla and TBC... yet still had content available for more casual players.

Yeah, if you're putting out a bunch of half-assed instances like Naxx 2.0, the majority of players will devour it quickly. But Blizzard is definitely capable of putting out brilliant instances like Sunwell or Naxx 1.0. But of course, this requires art, production, and precision balancing... a skill Blizzard has seemed to have lost since WotLK.

Nor would they want to, their game would spiral up at a ridiculous rate. Cosmetic rewards not only fulfill a basic need for most players (to stand out, to not look 'just like everyone else') but you can make a lot more of them without causing your upper limit to constantly soar.


I would agree with this if gear wasn't reset every expansion and heroic badge loot didn't exist. That's your mechanism to keep the bar from getting too high for newer and lower level players.

A bit more cynical view too is that they can produce more of them to sell as well. That's another philosophy change for Blizzard. Things that they'll say that they'll never, ever do in a million years will certainly change if they can find a way to charge for it.

And it's a lot easier to just make skins, as you don't have to keep balance of the classes/pvp/pve in mind while doing it. Just have an artist make a new skin for people to earn, and throw it in the game. Done.


God forbid a developer has to balance a game system.

So yea. I feel you on the 'dumbing down' side of things, but on the Cosmetic vs. Progression side, I think you are just going to be more and more disappointed with MMO's in general.


This I definitely agree with. I miss the days when MMOs where MMOs and this type of crap were limited to $1.99 cell phone games, but sadly that play style has crept into MMOs as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm mostly just ranting. I definitely understand, from a business perspective, why Blizzard does these things. My problem is that it's all that Blizzard is doing anymore. This kind of stuff should be in the game, but it should not come at the expense of real, actual content. WoW has moved beyond the MMO for everyone to a niche MMO for a specific play style... and sadly that play style is not mine.

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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Munki » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:10 am

Sadly, this is what happens when video games get mainstream :)

You already know full well why things like Naxx 1.0 and Sunwell aren't done anymore. It's not cost effective to do so. I wouldn't blame blizzard for that, just blame the changing of the times. The majority of the players in wow would never have the time or ability to experience those kinds of things, so obviously they won't do it anymore.

I still think you don't give the cosmetic side of things enough credit. It is a very large side of things and a very frequent complaint leveled against Vanilla (everyone just looks the same). And ultimately solving that complaint really is not difficult.

I personally am far more falling in to the camp that character progression has stopped being an interesting illusion for me. Getting better gear just so I can step up the ladder to the next rung has stopped really being exciting for me. Especially when that step requires random loot drops. I definitely understand that many love character "progression" in a tiered content setup though.

But to refute one point. Even with things like Naxx 1.0 and Sunwell, players will ALWAYS devour content faster than blizzard can produce. At least if the content being produced is expected to be at a certain bar. Sure, they devour things faster now that blizzard doesn't tune their content for the <1%, but yea... players have gotten REALLY serious about this game over time, and they are always going to conquer faster than creation can occur.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Eggnog » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:52 am

Kiawah wrote:
Munki wrote:Unfortunately Kia, "cosmetic" rewards and systems are not only here to stay, but I fully expect them to be getting bigger in MMO's in general. The reason is, they are actually pretty popular with a section of the playerbase


Fixed. The size of that player base is debatable, but it's certainly not the entire player base. I'm old.


Fixed.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Deldinor » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:33 am

I am posting in this awesome thread.

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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Deldinor » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:36 am


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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Sord » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:41 pm

I think I've got past my burning hatred (and burning loins. I got an ointment) and it has settled into general disinterest. It could just be that I'm "done" with WoW, like I was done with UO and EQ.

I have no doubt that the content will be of good quality when it comes out, its just content that I have no interest in playing. I still think pandaren are stupid but when I look back, they aren't really any more stupid than space goats or worgen or goblins, I guess. While they were basically a DLC / april fool's joke in WC3, they are apparently somewhat fleshed out in the pen and paper RPG books that pre-date WoW. Not many of us knew that cause who the fuck played pen and paper warcraft?!
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Tamayo » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:32 pm

Does it really matter if they change the talents like this? Talent builds pretty much have one "most effective" path per tree, and that is what everyone who plays the game seriously uses. This is essentially just trimming the fat, since they obviously know that 90% of the players all use the same stuff. I know I used to look at a lot of the talents that weren't a part of the accepted builds and thought to myself "why does this talent even exist, its not good and no one would ever choose it." Just because there is the illusion of more choice in the current system doesn't really mean there's more depth.

I'm not arguing that they didn't dumb down WoW. But this talent change, doesn't seem nearly as bad as the other things they've done.
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby PopnFresh » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:01 pm

The initial tree redesign they did, for Cata, made sense. And there was still some fat, but the amount by which they've trimmed it by is nuts.

There is still some choice out there. Not for DPS so much, because DPS is something that can be proven with math to have a most effective way. Usually the only variable you get is "when you reach X-tier of gear, you'll want Y talents instead" (rogues and ret pallies and hunters were at least like that for a while).

So right there, even that small choice is eliminated. Because the six new skills you'll get in place of talents will have a fairly clear choice on which path to take.

However, with tanks and healers, there is certainly room for experimentation. Ask any DK brave enough to try and tank within a month of Wrath's release, when most said DK tanking was impossible. People theorycrafted with various talent builds and found a way. Even currently, as a pally tank I get a good five points to spend any way I wish, and where I spend those could impact how I play quite a bit. I don't seem that same flexibility with the new system.

I don't see choice in an RPG as necessarily black and white. WoW in its current state offers little choice, but there is some, you can find it in there. The new system feels like it will offer much less in that regard. Like going from a 2 to a 0.7. But of course that's just a guess based on what they've shown so far, maybe they'll end up doing a good job of creating a real sense of choice with the new structure. Though it's also worth noting that they alluded to the same thing for Cataclysm, that their tree redesign would allow for more player flexibility (they also echoed the same "Horde and Alliance conflict at the forefront" message that they've been touting)
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Sord » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:26 pm

The talent trees feel like they've had one too many facelifts at this point.

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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Tamayo » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:07 pm

Sooooo... is anyone planning on giving this a try? Despite my better judgment, my curiosity is tempting me to check it out for a few months but I'd want to be able to actually play with someone... anyone??
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Sord » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:19 pm

I'm not. WoW will go down as a good memory like UO and EQ did. Maybe my best gaming memory. It was in WoW where I met all you mooks, afterall :)
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Tamayo » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:13 am

Indeed, the days of vanilla WoW were quite good... :'( :'( :'(
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Re: So... Mists of Pandaria

Postby Kiawah » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:29 am

There's nothing added in MoP that would make me want to play again. Challenge mode dungeons and pet battles seem to be the only two features added besides the level cap increase. Just more fluff
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